. . . & furthermore (grumbles Shira with Katrina)
. . . I second her complaint about independent minyanim (see end of the same post by Katrina to which I linked in my previous post), which is not about what they're doing, but what they're claiming:
"--This article reminded me of the independent minyan movement, which drives me up a tree. I think that it was laudable for the founders of the movement to try to create great environments for meaningfuldavening (praying) when they couldn't find it elsewhere. Then their heads got a little big when various philanthropists and journalists (including in the Forward) said they were the living end. But the bottom line is, AN INDEPENDENT MINYAN IS A SHUL. Hadar just opened its own yeshivah, for pete's sake. Its founders are having kids, and those kids will need Hebrew schools and bnei mitzvah and the like. Then they will buy buildings, or at least more permanent spaces, and basically provide all of the same services as shuls, possibly without rabbis, but Hadar has had rabbinic figures as well. And some small shuls in the Midwest and so forth don't have rabbis. So what is a shul, really?"
My own complaint, since I'm a few years older than Katrina, is based more on recent North American Jewish history. What makes the independent minyan "movement" think they're doing something new? What are we, chopped liver?
"--This article reminded me of the independent minyan movement, which drives me up a tree. I think that it was laudable for the founders of the movement to try to create great environments for meaningfuldavening (praying) when they couldn't find it elsewhere. Then their heads got a little big when various philanthropists and journalists (including in the Forward) said they were the living end. But the bottom line is, AN INDEPENDENT MINYAN IS A SHUL. Hadar just opened its own yeshivah, for pete's sake. Its founders are having kids, and those kids will need Hebrew schools and bnei mitzvah and the like. Then they will buy buildings, or at least more permanent spaces, and basically provide all of the same services as shuls, possibly without rabbis, but Hadar has had rabbinic figures as well. And some small shuls in the Midwest and so forth don't have rabbis. So what is a shul, really?"
My own complaint, since I'm a few years older than Katrina, is based more on recent North American Jewish history. What makes the independent minyan "movement" think they're doing something new? What are we, chopped liver?
Labels: Hadar--https://www.hadar.org/
posted by Shira Salamone at 8:24 PM
15 Comments:
You ARE chopped liver. :)
The independent minyan movement is interested in creating a prayer-focused group with educated lay leadership. The things they will need, educating the next generation, will likely take place in full-time schooling, not Hebrew school, if they want their children to have the education they have (that might be Charter School + Prayer lessons, or who knows).
A group of educated, egalitarian, Jews that want a prayer-oriented religious experience, not a social club, doesn't fit in within the existing frameworks. The egalitarian side excludes them from Orthodoxy, and their seriousness excludes the Conservative movement.
They want a warm group for serious minded students. The Conservative movement is chasing the Reform movement on conversion. To an independent minyan, conversion shouldn't matter... a serious Jew doesn't seriously date and marry a non-Jew. Regarding a serious candidate converting for the right reasons, the existing Jewish framework can handle that just fine, and that convert, lacking the education to lead, probably doesn't fit within an independent minyan anyway.
So while their practices may resemble a JTS position paper on conservative Judaism, it doesn't look like any Conservative Temple that I walked into.
A friend of mine that grew up Orthodox said that the eye opener for her in college were serious non-Orthodox Jews. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist off the college campus, except perhaps with independent minyanim in major urban areas.
Seriously though, saying Kaddish on behalf of those that can't/won't make the 3/day commitment, Hebrew school for children who don't keep any Judaism in the home, Kashrut status questions, etc., these aren't in their life, and that is what seems to dominate the Conservative movement... Plus, what's the appeal for a 30 year old with their first child to join a congregation that wants $4k/year to support a fancy building that will be mad at them if they show up for services with a kid in tow?
The independent minyanim aren't referring to themselves as a "movement"; that label comes (inaccurately, we would agree) from people on the outside.
And there are plenty of people (myself included) who are involved both in the newer wave of "independent minyanim" and in the National Havurah Committee, and who give proper credit to the historical precedents.
Miami Al, I think Shira was referring to her history with the havura movement, not the mainline Conservative movement.
Shira, in another 30 years do you expect a new set of 'independent minyanim' to spring up and the current generation to react the way you are now? If not, why not? If so, what is the problem that makes these hybrid congregations sterile (in the sense of not having offspring for the next generation). They obviously display hybrid vigor.
Miami Al, I think you underestimate the number of "serious" jews in the Conservative Movement. In that respect, the problem is frequently not the movement itself (although it has plenty on its plate), but the significant numbers of people who join and periodically attend conservative shuls, who are not conservative jews. As I've noted before, I can only speak of what happens in the greater northeast U.S. metroplex, but I see plenty of serious jews on a regular basis. They keep kosher, they observe shabbat, they're leyning and serving as sha'tz, And many of them are not recent day school or Ramah alumni, although many of their kids are. They may not be observing halacha in the same fashion you are, but they are observing, they have well-established jewish identities, and they are living jewish lives. The more I read about the independent minyanim, the more I fear they are more in love with their "iconoclastic" image than genuinely concerned with the health and welfare and future of their community.
Miami Al, that's quite a rant. :)
"A group of educated, egalitarian, Jews that want a prayer-oriented religious experience, not a social club, doesn't fit in within the existing frameworks. The egalitarian side excludes them from Orthodoxy, and their seriousness excludes the Conservative movement.
Sounds a bit like me, minus the "educated" part. I go to synagogue to talk to G-d, not to talk to Gila, though I enjoy talking to "Gila" *after* services. That's what kiddush is for.
"Seriously though, saying Kaddish on behalf of those that can't/won't make the 3/day commitment, Hebrew school for children who don't keep any Judaism in the home, Kashrut status questions, etc., these aren't in their life, and that is what seems to dominate the Conservative movement... " Sigh. You've read my "Tolerance and/or standards" post, so you know some of the "fun" I'm dealing with on this issue. More to follow in future posts.
"Plus, what's the appeal for a 30 year old with their first child to join a congregation that wants $4k/year to support a fancy building that will be mad at them if they show up for services with a kid in tow?" Been there, done that. :(
BZ, thanks for the clarification. You trying to keep me studying with such long posts? :) And thanks for letting all my readers know of your involvement, and that of other independent minyanim participants, in the National Havurah Committee. Giving credit is an old Jewish tradition, enshrined in the Talmud.
Al, Larry is correct--I was referring to the Havurah Movement. Nu, Al, follow the links!
"in another 30 years do you expect a new set of 'independent minyanim' to spring up and the current generation to react the way you are now?" Oh, probably. :) "If so, what is the problem that makes these hybrid congregations sterile (in the sense of not having offspring for the next generation)." See BZ's link. I think it's probably true that the independent minyanim, as currently organized, are most suited for those in between the Hillel and parenthood stages of life. Some of the older chavurot morphed as as large number of participants entered the parenthood phase, and began doing things such as organizing their own Hebrew Schools. In that regard, some chavurot did begin to resemble synagogues, as Katrina said. It may be that either the same or similar will happen with the independent minyanim and/or they may simply experience large changes in membership over time, as some members leave the area to start families and new young folks join. I'm hoping there's room for a few empty-nesters, too, as I'd like to check out Kehilat Hadar. (See the comments to this post.)
Steve, sit tight--I'm breaking this into 2 comments because this window won't accept links in comments of over 4,096 characters. Gee, I'm long-winded today. :)
Steve, you said, "Miami Al, I think you underestimate the number of "serious" jews in the Conservative Movement. In that respect, the problem is frequently not the movement itself (although it has plenty on its plate), but the significant numbers of people who join and periodically attend conservative shuls, who are not conservative jews." "Significant" is an understatement, in my opinion, I'm sorry to say. My experience has been that the serious Jews in Conservative synagogues are not necessarily the majority, and/or, perhaps worse, they're not the ones raising seriously Jewish kids. Unfortunately, I have personal experience with parents who belong to Conservative synagogues but aren't serious Jews.
"The more I read about the independent minyanim, the more I fear they are more in love with their "iconoclastic" image than genuinely concerned with the health and welfare and future of their community." I think the jury is still out on that. I'm taking a "dan l'kaf z'chut, judge everyone favorable"/give everyone the benefit of the doubt approach.
Shira part 1 of the problem with the perception of fewer 'serious' C Jews is the popularity of the Conservative movement. C affiliated Jews are over a 3rd of the total affiliated Jewish population in America. There are very few C shuls that have a critical mass of observant Jews. It might actually be that there are half as many observant C Jews as O Jews, but they are diluted in the less observant masses.
Part 2 of the problem is that the definition of 'serious' Jew is different between O and the liberal movements. My father a"h was a 'serious' Jew. He identified himself as Jewish, attended shul rarely, gave of both his time and money to chartiable causes both Jewish and otherwise, and credited his Jewish background for many of his positive middot and actions. He also was very proud of the nation of Israel, in a purely secular fashion.
By O standards my Dad was not 'serious' at all. He did not keep kosher outside the home, did not daven regularly even on Shabbat, was not affiliated with an Orthodox shul, did not send his kids to day school or yeshiva, etc.
This goes back to the 'framing' post I linked to earlier. The number of 'serious' C Jews is different and larger than the number of 'observant' C Jews. If you only consider 'observant' Jews to be 'serious' then your picture is very different.
Note that we still have a problem that not enough C Jews are observant, but this frame will lead to different solutions than one in which 'serious' = 'observant'.
"There are very few C shuls that have a critical mass of observant Jews. It might actually be that there are half as many observant C Jews as O Jews, but they are diluted in the less observant masses." You may have a point, Larry.
"back to the 'framing' post I linked to earlier. The number of 'serious' C Jews is different and larger than the number of 'observant' C Jews. If you only consider 'observant' Jews to be 'serious' then your picture is very different." True. There seem to be some "serious" Jews who focus on Jewish culture and/or, like your father, on Judaism-inspired social action.
"Note that we still have a problem that not enough C Jews are observant, but this frame will lead to different solutions than one in which 'serious' = 'observant'." I wonder whether Rabbi Mordechai Kaplan, founder of the Reconstructionist Movement, ever considered the possibility that there might be "serious" Jews who weren't also observant. I guess I don't really see "cultural" or "social-justice" Judaism surviving without Judaism's religious underpinnings.
Larry said, "Shira, in another 30 years do you expect a new set of 'independent minyanim' to spring up and the current generation to react the way you are now?" Here’s the link I wanted to used for "Oh, probably. :)" I don't have access to YouTube at the office.
Miami Al writes:
To an independent minyan, conversion shouldn't matter... a serious Jew doesn't seriously date and marry a non-Jew. Regarding a serious candidate converting for the right reasons, the existing Jewish framework can handle that just fine, and that convert, lacking the education to lead, probably doesn't fit within an independent minyan anyway.
You are wrong on many levels. All the independent minyanim I have been involved with include some participants who are Jews by choice, some of whom are very Jewishly educated.
BZ, thanks for that clarification. It's good to know that the independent minyanim welcome Gerim/Jews by Choice.
Gerim come in many flavors, including the Talmid Chacham/Wise Student flavor. One of my occasional commenters who's a Jew by Choice is a serious Gemara student. Making assumptions based on background is not always the best idea.
Independent minyamin vs. havurot. Unintentionally(?) hilarious photo of egalitarian minyan.
BTW, I didn't mean to imply that "Jews by Choice" aren't Jews, just suggesting that the "conversion problem" is a segment of them that wouldn't be in an independent minyan.
Let's look at converts: convert that converts under Orthodox auspices, not a problem for anyone. Insincere convert that converts under non-Orthodox auspices: probably not in the independent minyan movement. Sincere convert that converts under non-Orthodox auspices, are only potential problem.
That latter group is VERY small, and can be handled delicately. The independent minyan isn't affiliated with Orthodoxy, so it doesn't owe political fealty, so if there is a question, they can "investigate" the conversion, should it so come up.
If someone is serious, observes (or at least acknowledges authority of mitzvot) did Mikvah, Beit Din, and Brit Milah (for male), they are a Jew. The recognition of the Beit Din is much more political than halachic, and can be handled by the Beit Din of choice.
If really concerned, i.e. someone converted under a liberal Rabbi when they weren't serious, and is now serious, have the Halachic committee convene a Beit Din and do a second conversion. I forget the Hebrew term, but there is a term for conversion just in case, it's used in the Charedi world for those that are questionable, you do it just to be careful, and are delicate with status. i.e. where it doesn't matter, they treat them as a convert, where it does matter, they treat them as a non-convert. So the status doesn't flip to convert if the daughter wants to marry a Cohen, you "investigate," but everyone is comfortable with their status as a Jew under their auspices.
I'm sure that I'm missing some relatively insignificant but worthy of tomes of rulings on the matter details, but there is a concept there.
As a rule, in the Diaspora, if you hold yourself out to be a Jew, and we have no reason to believe otherwise, you're a Jew, because Halacha presumes that there is no benefit (financial) to being a Jew. In Medinat Yisrael, there ARE benefits (financial) to being a Jew, so the burden of proof is on the claimed Jew to prove it.
Halacha is flexible, Shul politics are not.
Larry, I hope you see this old post, but this comment of yours hit me.
I don't mean "serious" as in Shomer Mitzvot. I mean "serious" as in: in the list of priorities of one's life, Judaism is pretty high up there. The non-Orthodox movements need to find a way to "frame" seriousness... that WAS the point of "bringing Shabbat back" as the Reform movement's biennial address... they don't want a neo-frumkeit, but they need a Shabbat, with their own definition.
I don't mean what one says, I mean what one does.
For example, what is more important, kids soccer or Judaism. It's easy to SAY Judaism, but what do you do when they come into conflict. If there is a practice on Saturday morning, and the kids skip Shul to go (assuming that they would NORMALLY go to Shul), clearly soccer is more important than Shul. What if they skip practice, but play in games, then they are on relatively equal levels. What if they skip games, except for playoffs... I'd say that they were more "serious" about Judaism, but not completely dedicated.
I have a bunch of hobbies that are mostly manifested on weekends. If the show is Saturday-Sunday, I have no conflict. If the show is only Saturday, I have to choose, is Judaism or my hobby more important. By picking Judaism, I'm expressing it as more serious.
Forget Shabbat, if you commit to kids going to Hebrew School twice/week, and they skip Hebrew School for soccer practice, then soccer practice is more important than Judaism. If you skip soccer for Hebrew School, then Judaism is more important than soccer.
Plenty of non-observant Jews consider Judaism somewhat important, the question is, how important. My wife grew up non-Orthodox, non-Shabbat Observant, yet they went to Shul every Shabbat. If she wanted to do extracurriculars, she could, but not skip Shul to do so. So Judaism was taken "seriously," even if not Shomer Shabbat.
Al
Agree 100%. My mom said the same, and raised us under the assumption that whatever fun stuff we did Saturday it was after Junior Congregation, that Hebrew School was funded (and attended) first and only then did we look at karate class, Mathletes, or whatever.
Interestingly, this approach continued only through Bar Mitzvah, at which point as an 'adult' it was assumed I could make my own choices. My attendance at shul fell considerably as I was no longer eligible for Junior Congregation and would have to sit quietly upstairs and listen to the cantor perform, which didn't interest me very much. Eventually the post-bar mitzvah evening school I was attending started student run services again, and my attendance went back up.
I did choose on my own to continue Jewish education post bar mitzvah, which pleased my parents immensely.
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